Monday, February 12, 2007

Is France Doomed To Anti-Semitism?

Many French will say that anti-semitism in France is not the problem, some make it out to be.

But in this article from the AFP, there is one prominent French cleric that disagrees (and he's not Jewish).

The archbishop of Paris and head of the Roman Catholic Church in France, Andre Vingt-Trois, said that France was doomed to a "pandemic of anti-Semitism" during a visit to Israel.

"France is doomed to a pandemic of anti-Semitism," he told a news conference in Tel Aviv with Israeli Tourism Minister Isaac Herzog after arriving on his first visit to the Holy Land.

"The feeling is fueled by a certain amount of events but we can be French and Catholic and not be frightened about meeting Jews and even enjoy it."

The Archbishop does not cite statistics. But what makes his claim worth considering is, he lives there. Because he lives there and is a prominent member of his community, we must assume that he has some sense or feel for the local population and their attitudes towards many things. What people say in everyday life may not always translate to what they may say in a survey or a poll. What they say in a cafe or a store to friends and family, what they think when no one else can read their minds, often does not translate in a survey or a poll, either.

I do not know how pervasive anti-semitic feelings and attitudes are in France, as I do not live there. I only have the stats that Super Frenchie provided, and now, I have the words of a religious leader that lives there (as brought to us all, via the French media). With these two conflicting views, it would be difficult to determine which one was more accurate in their perspective. But one determination is certainly plain to see, France is divided on their perceptions of themselves.

24 comments:

rocket said...

The French are basically cowards in Cartesian clothing. Always have been always will be. What they try to do in a poll is make themselves look universal but when you get down to the nitty gritty you realize at what point they are genetic racists. They always bring up bloodline if they hear an accent. You have to discuss with the people under different conditions (maybe a couple of beers)than in a poll in order to take the pulse in this country. Why am I suddenly thinking of Mel Gibson drunk. By the way did he ever get to praying with the Jewish community? In France jobs are refused without a reason and apartments are refused equally for rental without reason and nothing happens. This is not always against necessarily Blacks or Arabs or Jews, but against all those who the French are mistrustful of. Americans included. When I was married to a French girl once upon a lifetime ago, I once went with her from La Dordogne to La Correze with her aunt who lived in Dordogne. No sooner had we crossed into Correze than the aunt started on how they people from Correze were so different and even the countryside was different from her chère Dordogne and she didn't feel confortable. As I was driving I could only chuckle to which she explained that an American could never understand. But this is much of the truth of the peoples of Europe. Some fortunately are more open than others. Others are more cowardly than others as has been manifested throughout history and is manifested even today.

France has always tried to put forward another perpective of what she really is other than the reality. One only needs to look at the time it took them to admit they were "collabos" in WWII for which I estime that Chirac had lot of courage inspite of what I may think of him otherwise.

Mary Ellen said...

I saw this article this morning and was going to e-mail it to you...you beat me to the punch.

Like rocket said, people aren't likely to answer a poll in a way that would make them look bad or racist. They are going to try and take the high road. It's how they act outside that poll, in real life, that counts. It's not just the outright racist actions, such as spray painting hateful remarks on a wall that proves there is anti-Semitism, it's the quiet things, like rocket pointed out, refusal to rent an apartment or give a refusal to employ someone because they are Jewish that counts.

I take little stock in the charts and stats that end up on some blogs. It's easy to google and find a chart or stat that will match your already pre-conceived notion. Hell, I can even argue for the Republicans if I wanted to....but I don't want to. ;-)

Mary Ellen said...

Oh...and I meant to ask about this quote;

"The feeling is fueled by a certain amount of events but we can be French and Catholic and not be frightened about meeting Jews and even enjoy it."

Are the French afraid to meet Jews? Bad translation or what?

LASunsett said...

Rocket,

//One only needs to look at the time it took them to admit they were "collabos" in WWII for which I estime that Chirac had lot of courage inspite of what I may think of him otherwise.//

Chirac does have one or two redeeming qualities, I am sure. At least he's not a socialist. ;)

But in all fairness, not all collaborated with the Nazis. There were some very brave French that were part of the resistance. Many that were caught paid dearly, some with their lives. Many war veterans that I have talked to over the years, said they would have had an even tougher time, had they not softened things up a bit for advancing allied forces.

LASunsett said...

ME,

//I take little stock in the charts and stats that end up on some blogs. It's easy to google and find a chart or stat that will match your already pre-conceived notion.//

Surely not. ;)

//Are the French afraid to meet Jews? Bad translation or what?//

I am not sure about that, could be. Maybe Rocket or someone else more in the know can find the French text on this article and fill us in.

BTW, welcome back. Don't make have to put a bunch of Hillary posts to get you to comment. ;)

Sometimes, you and I agree on more than you may think.

Mary Ellen said...

Sometimes we agree on more than you think.

OMG! Don't say that!!!! :-D

Here's a couple of Barack Obama jokes I think you might like...

"Over the weekend, Senator Barack Obama visited New Hampshire and thousands of people showed up to hear him speak. The New Hampshire crowds were excited, because apparently, this is the first time they've ever seen an African-American." --Conan O'Brien

"The Reverend Jesse Jackson told CNN that he's planning to endorse Barack Obama for president. Experts say this is a risky move for Jackson, because hardly anything rhymes with 'Barack Obama.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Senator Barack Obama proposed for the first time setting a deadline for withdrawing troops from Iraq, as part of a broader plan aimed at bolstering his foreign policy credentials. Because if you don't know your foreign policy, you might only get elected president twice." -- Amy Poehler


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

//"BTW, welcome back. Don't make have to put a bunch of Hillary posts to get you to comment. ;)"//

I'm happy to be back, but...looking at that sentence structure, I have to wonder if you really mean it. I it sounds like you've been hitting the sauce tonight!(kidding, just kidding!) :-D

LASunsett said...

ME,

//I'm happy to be back, but...looking at that sentence structure, I have to wonder if you really mean it.//

The Pharisees made a man an offender for a word, but you have made me an offender for a pronoun (or lack thereof).

;)

Seriously, you know I mean it. And don't start defending Republicans either. Can't get any arguments going, doing that.

Mary Ellen said...

OK,LA, no more Mrs. Nice Guy...or something like that.

Maybe you can do a post on the Washington Post story that tells of how Bush AGAIN failed to give our troops the proper armor to defend them during this surge of his. In fact, they say the armor for the vehicles won't arrive until July. Hmmm....looks like Bush still can't figure out sequence...Armor and protection for the troops BEFORE they go into battle. I wonder why Bush hates our military so much?

LASunsett said...

ME,

Put up the link, I will start there and if there is criticism to be dealt, I will do it.

I don't know how much I will get done in the next two days with the impending snowstorm we are supposed to get tonight and tomorrow. May get snowed in at work, wouldn't that bite?

Mary Ellen said...

Here's the link on the Washington Post story, LA.

My son is hoping for a snow day tomorrow, I already got an e-mail from his high school that said they are canceling all before school meetings and activities just in case the storm hits here too late to get the snow removed for the buses. I have no choice and have to go out tomorrow...bummer.

Looks like Indiana is going to get it worse than us, though. Have fun!



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/11/AR2007021101345.html

Mary Ellen said...

OK...that link didn't work. Here's a tinyurl, that might work better.

http://tinyurl.com/2ulkxv

L'Amerloque said...

Hi ME !

/*/Oh...and I meant to ask about this quote;

"The feeling is fueled by a certain amount of events but we can be French and Catholic and not be frightened about meeting Jews and even enjoy it."

Are the French afraid to meet Jews? Bad translation or what?/*/

Well, it's certainly not proper Queen's English, or American English, or any variety of English Amerloque is aware of. (smile)

One cannot say a "certain amount of events", just as one cannot say "fewer money". It should be a "certain number of events", of course. (grin)

Amerloque will now address the article in a bit more detail (smile)

* * * * *


Hello LASunsett !


/*/The Archbishop does not cite statistics. But what makes his claim worth considering is, he lives there. Because he lives there and is a prominent member of his community, we must assume that he has some sense or feel for the local population and their attitudes towards many things./*/

Background deficit here, LAS ! (smile)

What should also make the "claim worth considering" is that he is currently on a trip to Israel with 500 other people from the French Catholic community. (sigh) Apparently the Israeli tourism ministry planned – and is financing - part of the trip. http://tinyurl.com/3df7s6

This recently-named archbishop (M Andre Vingt-Trois) is the spiritual heir of the previous archbishop of Paris, Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger. Cardinal Lustiger never had to demonstrate his credentials, at least in the French political arena, as a fighter against alleged "anti-Semitism" because he was, in fact, born a Jew in 1926. He converted to Catholicism in 1940 in Orleans, where his family had taken refuge. His mother died at Auschwitz. He is a leading intellectual, having been elected to the Academie Francaise, and is held up as a model of "integration" into mainstream French society. If anything, down through the years he has taken a lot of cr*p from the French Jewish community, some (vocal) members of which felt that Lustiger had "betrayed his Jewish heritage" when he converted so long ago. This surfaces in certain portions of the press at almost regular intervals. However, he has never been accused of not stepping up against real or alleged "anti-Semitism". http://tinyurl.com/f3o3q

M Vingt-Trois was born and bred a Roman Catholic. He was hand-picked by Lustiger to succeed him, and was Lustiger's assistant for something like seventeen or eighteen years. From 1999 to 2005 he was Archbishop of Tours and then was named to Paris when Lustiger had requested his (mandatory) retirement at the age of 75.
http://tinyurl.com/24ankd

Recently M Vingt-Trois has been accused by (vocal) members of the French Jewish community of not speaking out "enough" against the alleged "resurgence of anti-Semitism in France". Here, he is bringing coals to Newcastle, taking this opportunity to reaffirm his – and its institution's – opposition to anti-Semitism. Standing next to M Herzog, whose ministry is involved in the "fact-finding" trip to Israel, gives M Vingt-Trois the ideal occasion to refurbish his credentials in the French political scene and to play to the gallery, in a manner of speaking. Obviously he's not going to go to Israel and play down alleged French anti-Semitism - one can imagine how certain portions of the Israeli and French press would react ! (smile)

This is not to deny that there is anti-Semitism in France – there is. In Amerloque's view, there is far, far less than is portrayed by certain press and official organs in Israel and in France, which are anxious to increase the number of French is making their aliyah.

Finally if one is not fully conversant with French culture and society one should always take any dispatch from the AFP (Agence France Presse) with many, many grains of salt. Though it is not a French government institution per se, it operates under special rules which a) exempt it from civil and criminal liability proceedings instituted under the French law of 1881 governing the French press and b) enable it to be termed either a "special administrative jurisdiction" '(juridiction administrative spéciale) or an "independent administrative authority" (autorité administrative indépendante) depending on which legal opinion one adheres to. (grin)

What Amerloque means here is that the battles, i.e., the cultural wars, being fought in French society are amply reflected in the choice of and the publication of dispatches of the AFP, far more than one might casually imagine if one is unfamiliar with France. Stories are planted and/or censored, in accordance with the opinion of the day or the week. Over the years, he has seen a given story break in AP or Reuters and never be reported in AFP, or reported so late that the "meat" of the story has changed substantially. He has also seen stories break in he AFP which were never reported in the AP or Reuters.

The AFP is a bottleneck through which a lot of news coming into and going out of France passes. This goes a long way to explaining, in Amerloque's view, certain opinions about the world (including the USA and "America") held by French people. If they not able to access unbiased and frequently updated information, how can one expect them to make their own judgments ?

This article – typical AFP schlock - is designed to be consumed by those who are already convinced, not by those who are looking for unbiased information, in Amerloque's view. (sigh)

Best,
L'Amerloque

Greg said...

Boy, is l'amerloque's last comment right on point or what? I tried to get this point across on the S-F blog last week, about why tourism is down in the US. I say it's b/c people outside the US hear nothing but negativity (and lies) about the country. Potential visitors might think their personal information will be stolen and stockpiled by immigration officials, before they are interrogated, tortured by lions and thrown into GITMO without a lawyer to languish forever and ever.

Anyway, that's off topic. Anti-semitism in France. My french-jewish friend Olivier says French people don't hate the Jews - they are indifferent. There is cetainly no fondness for Jews, but your average frenchman isn't secretly hoping for a holocaust either. Though, if there were, I don't think France would send troops to stop it.

If you want some real virulent anti-semitism, go visit the poor suburbs occupied by unemployed folks of arab origin. Many of them do hope for another holocaust. These are the people perpetrating hate crimes against jews. And this is where the apathy of the average frechman becomes a problem, since they don't see attacks on jews as anything to worry about (or they pretend it doesn't happen very much).

I'm not particularly jewish (my father is, but my mother is irish catholic), but I myself was the target of antisemitic "attacks" (I wasn't physically injured) twice in three years living there. I guess I "look jewish." Both times it was in a crowded place.

So, I agree that the issue is not fully understood or accurately reported in the media, but it's definitely a problem that festers.

Greg said...

Okay, just an example of my off-topic point about news coverage. From today's Liberation: "Deadly shootings in public places are relatively common in the United States." Seriously.

Mary Ellen said...

I was looking up some sites last night to see if I could find anything on anti-semitism in France and came up with the same info that Greg has given in his last comment.

Apparently, many of the instances where someone was attacked are not reported as anti-semitism, but merely a run of the mill crime. It isn't until someone calls them on the fact that the person who was attacked was Jewish, that they suddenly become concerned and huff and puff about how this is not tolerated in France.

The number of anti-Semitic incidents in France increased from 320 in 2001 to 593 in 2003. In the first six months of this year alone, there were more than 500 hate crimes directed at French Jews. Attacks on Jews now account for over 80 percent of all bias-related offenses committed in France each year.

According to most I've read, Greg is dead on when speaking of the large Moslim population that are carrying out many of these crimes. It's the fact that the French government doesn't seem to care (unless it is pointed out) that the Jews are being targeted.

Mary Ellen said...

I was looking up some sites last night to see if I could find anything on anti-semitism in France and came up with the same info that Greg has given in his last comment.

Apparently, many of the instances where someone was attacked are not reported as anti-semitism, but merely a run of the mill crime. It isn't until someone calls them on the fact that the person who was attacked was Jewish, that they suddenly become concerned and huff and puff about how this is not tolerated in France.

The number of anti-Semitic incidents in France increased from 320 in 2001 to 593 in 2003. In the first six months of this year alone, there were more than 500 hate crimes directed at French Jews. Attacks on Jews now account for over 80 percent of all bias-related offenses committed in France each year.

According to most I've read, Greg is dead on when speaking of the large Moslim population that are carrying out many of these crimes. It's the fact that the French government doesn't seem to care (unless it is pointed out) that the Jews are being targeted, that bothers me the most. Well, you know the old adage, "hear no evil, see no evil...."

Mary Ellen said...

Wow...a double post, I must be special today! :-D

I added something to the end of the first comment and for some reason, both of the comments were added.

Oh well....it just beefs up the comment section for LA! ;-)

Rocket said...

LA you said

"Chirac does have one or two redeeming qualities, I am sure. At least he's not a socialist. ;)"

But he is at a socialist at heart. Started off as a Communist then switched to the right and lurched quite further to the right and then went back to the center and now is rhetorically quite left of center.(which I believe is because of his eternal "lutte" again GWB. (sacred mission, quoi!)

and I quote from the book "Le grand Méchant Marché" Flammarion

"You make money on other peoples back and then throw everybody out of a job. The dictatorship of financial profitability. ça suffit"

My translation from page 7 of the book

Who said it? Why Jacques Chirac of course.

There's a saying in France that even a French rightist is to the left of Tony Blair.

And that is why among a thousand other reasons why Jacques Chirac is a socialist at heart.

Rocket said...

Mary Ellen hit it on the head also. hate crimes in France are often reported as simple run of the mill crimes so as not to "fausser les chiffres"

Especially under the socialists of Jospin.

religion of pieces said...

SUPPORT THE CAMBRIDGE PATRIOT !

Mobilize the Blogosphere!

Counter-jihadist bloggers must not abandon this young man. Cambridge University is trying to hush things up, probably to avoid interrupting the flow of petrodollars rather than protecting the student from any more death threats in addition to the ones he's had from the University and City Muslims (town and gown Muzzies united!)

When everything has quietened down, the student is likely to be hauled before a Kangaroo Court - the Clare College Court of Discipline, which will meet for the "first time in living memory" (do they still conduct their trials in Latin?).

He is likely to be charged with 'Racial Incitement' (Yes I know Islam isn't a race - but try explaining that to a Cambridge professor). He will be given a fair trial and then expelled.

The two other possible charges are 'Blasphemy' and 'Bringing the College into Disrepute'. The former is extremely dodgy because blasphemy has historically only applied to the Christian religion.

As for ' Bringing the College into Disrepute' , it could be argued that the spineless dhimmified College dons have done far more damage to its reputation by grovelling before the threat of Mohammedan thuggery than has the student. Counter- jihadists may choose to put this view to the Clare College authorities.

Clare College has obviously many moonbats in its ancient belfry - their first reaction on seeing the cartoon was to call the police! In this environment a fair trial is impossible.

It is likely that the Kangaroo Court will be a travesty of justice and will sit in private with the student not being allowed representation or to call supporting testimony (Contrast with the very similar Charlie Hebdo case in France).

The judge and jury will no doubt consist of those sneering postmodernists, Marxists and politically correct jobsworths who detest and work to undermine the very civilization that supports these parasites in the style to which they are accustomed.

Islamically-aware bloggers need to send out the message loud and clear that it is every Briton's birthright - and indeed every Briton's patriotic duty - to ridicule the three totems of the barbarians.

Islam is an absurd and primitive belief system - philosophically, theologically and cosmologically (the sun setting in muddy spring etc).

However, it is impossible to defeat Islam by rational argument, because most Muslims are profoundly irrational and ignorant. They are primitive tribalists who have no understanding of logically reasoned discourse. But like all tribalists they are acutely sensitive to their totems being dishonoured. This, as Ali Sina pointed out [1] , is where they are at their must vulnerable. They cannot tolerate their totems being mocked .

THE FIRST TOTEM which we should ridicule is the one and only foundation of this Satanic cult, that depraved violater of innocence, the monstrous Pervert Mohammed himself. The original Danish Motoons were actually quite mild compared with what was to follow [2]. The Clare college student is to be congratulated in bringing his fellow undergraduates' attention to the intrinsically violent nature and institutionalised pedophilia of those who model themselves on Mohammed's sick psychotic personality.

THE SECOND TOTEM which we should ridicule is the basic doctrine of Islam. The foundational belief of Islam is that Allah is a brothel-keeper [3] and Mohammed is his ponce, and you get to screw 72 virgins and bugger 24 pretty pre-pubescent boys in Allah's brothel in the sky if you kill enough infidels. If bloggers can make this doctrine into a standing joke we've gone a long way towards destroying Islam.

THE THIRD TOTEM of Islam is the koran - Mohammed's murderous hate manifesto . Mohamedans are acutely sensitive to the book being 'humiliated' in any way (like being put on the bottom shelf in a bookshop - it should always be on the top shelf next to the porn). There are many ways of humiliating a koran, and infidels are encouraged to find novel approaches. You don't even need to vandalise or deface the book. Returning it to the college library containing that greasy bacon wrapper which you were using as a bookmark should cause a major riot.

Finally, to repeat my main message. We need to let the snivelling dhimmis at Brown-nose college know that the bloggers are watching them like hawks.


TOTEMS

[1] Why mocking Islam is so effective: http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2006/02/some-very-enlightening-thoughts-from.html


[2] More Motoons
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/extreme_mohammed/
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000783.html
Mo the filthy child molester...
http://www.faithfreedom.org/audio/Islamsnot4me.htm


[3] Taking the piss out of Islam. 72 virgins and 24 boys with liquid brown eyes....
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000079.html
http://www.islamcomicbook.com/lyrics3.htm
http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/content/articles/070129sh_shouts_martin

LASunsett said...

Hi Amerloque,

//This article – typical AFP schlock - is designed to be consumed by those who are already convinced, not by those who are looking for unbiased information, in Amerloque's view.//

I think the same can be said about many other organizations, in many different countries. It's often difficult to know just what's what. In this day and time, one must read all things with some measure of caution, that's for sure.

The problem here (in my case) is one of language barrier. Most French news publications are in French, so finding nuances in articles and criticisms of the French MSM in lesser known media outlets, is virtually nil in the USA. I suspect that even in those that offer English translations to material, still lose something in the translation sometimes.

(In short, we take what we can get.)

As result of this, Americans and other nations that cannot read French are at the mercy of those that publish in English. And that often times leads to misunderstanding of the French nation, and its people.

But as we all know (those that have read your writings), we certainly value your input in matters such as this. So, anytime you see a chance to give us the "lowdown" or the skinny" on such, know that we all appreciate it greatly. :)

LASunsett said...

ME

it just beefs up the comment section for LA! ;-)

I used to work for a fairly small private company, where I was the number two officer, second only to him. One of his mottos - make us look bigger than we really are. It worked well when I was trying to secure new accounts.

So, go ahead and pad those stats. ;)

Mary Ellen said...

I know this is late in commenting, but I just saw this today. It seems that in Nice, the Vichy laws of the past are still in effect and being used against the Jews.

Jews Need Not Apply

http://tinyurl.com/39z73x

So, I guess that answers your question...France IS doomed to anti-semitism.

You won't see this article posted in SF's blog, eh?

Mary Ellen said...

Ooops. This link will be better than the one I posted in my comment above. The other one goes to the site where I saw the article, this one goes directly to the article.

http://tinyurl.com/3dl5dh