Thursday, June 07, 2007

The Burning And The Music

I am still in the midst of a busy stretch. Long day yesterday and it looks to be another one today. So here is something to look at while I am mining salt:

AC, one of my favorite bloggers and a distinguished regular commenter here at PYY, is not only a thinker, but is quite creative in presenting his musings. Right now he appears to be headed for the level of disenchantment with the President that I am, albeit for reasons different than me.

His post Fiddling On The Balcony is a must read, whether you agree with him or not.

17 comments:

Mary Ellen said...

I think it's funny how you guys have suddenly turned Bush into your whipping boy, when you were the ones who made him what he is today. You guys are the ones who said he could do no wrong, you guys are the ones who approved..no, applauded his pre-emptive war based on lies. You accepted his lies as truth and now your whining about it?

Where was your outrage during the Katrina mess? Instead, you guys made excuses, blamed it on any Democrat within ear range. You are the guys who bought that WMD crap, hook, line and sinker. You guys are the ones who have been protecting Rove, even after he was responsible for all the "bad advice" he gave Bush.

Give.me.a.break! I just hope that he continues to bring down the rest of those clowns in the Republican party who are still protecting him and voting for whatever he wants. I hope every.single.Republican who said we need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here, have the courage to send your own kids "over there".

Bush isn't "fiddling on the balacony"...he's playing you guys for fools while giving Halliburton more no bid contracts so they can suck more money out of this war at the expense of the blood of our GI's.

Vote Democrat and you'll feel better about yourselves.

Have a nice day! :-D

A.C. McCloud said...

Ouch, ME. Cut me a little slack because I believe LA is so busy he confused me with someone else.

I've not changed my mind on Katrina. My brother was on one of the recovery teams. I believe his assessment over some partisan liberal dead set on blaming a natural disaster on someone in office for 5 years over a city government that's been corrupt for 100.

Other than immigration Rove hasn't done so bad. Ask Gore and Kerry.

Oh, and you might want to ask a Kurd or Iranian whether Saddam has WMDs. They just weren't there when we arrived, which is what tends to happen when you telegraph a war for 9 months.

Saddam is dead. That's good. Bush did it. And oh, my kid IS in the military.

Bush's plan of leveraging the G8 on Global Warming and going around Kyoto is brilliant and he's getting absolutely no love for it.

But thanks, I will have a nice day. You do the same!

LASunsett said...

AC,

//Cut me a little slack because I believe LA is so busy he confused me with someone else.//

With grueling 12-14 hours days in a profession that demands that I be perfect for all of them. that's always a possibility. If I misread or misrepresented your objective in the post, I do humbly apologize. It seems that you were a bit dismayed at how the Pres is handling the burning of Rome, so to speak.

But way beyond that, I think ME views things more in terms of black and white or all good/all bad, where politics are concerned. Whereas, you and I may see the gray areas as far as party politics are concerned, she sees the Dems as saviors to the world and Bush as the evil force that must be conquered. I, on the other hand, do not see him as Satan (as those on the left do), nor do I see him as Jesus Christ incarnate (like the Bushie neocons do).

You and I may be on the same page most of the time (on an issue to issue basis), but as you know, there are times when we are not. We view things based on how we feel on those given issues, not how we feel about the man.

If the man's view is the same as ours, so be it, we are happier for it. But if he is not, then we (as independents) have the right to criticize that very same man's views (and actions), without fear or regret.

If we like one thing he does and he comes under unfair attack by those that hate his guts, we can and often do, defend him. And we have the perfect right to do so. If he does something we don't like, we have the perfect right to criticize him, and we often do. We, as principled independent thinkers, are not beholden to a party line of thinking, just because we may not like the man. The same principle applies if we do like the man.

So, as much as I love ME and respect her right to her opinion to hate and mistrust Bush (and basically all Republicans) at almost every turn, I take much of what she says, with a grain of salt. She is a wonderful person, I just do not live in her political world, toeing a strict party line.

Someday, I would like for her to meet my mother's husband, he is a staunch Democrat and has no use for any Republican whatsoever. They would be able to bash Bush, Reagan, and whoever else they chose, for hours on end, on one pot of coffee between them.

While they do that, I could roam my mother's beautiful piece of property, reconnect myself with nature and the peaceful existence that a rural horse farm has to offer.

;)

Mary Ellen said...

But way beyond that, I think ME views things more in terms of black and white or all good/all bad, where politics are concerned. Whereas, you and I may see the gray areas as far as party politics are concerned, she sees the Dems as saviors to the world and Bush as the evil force that must be conquered. I, on the other hand, do not see him as Satan (as those on the left do), nor do I see him as Jesus Christ incarnate (like the Bushie neocons do).

Your view of how I see politics is pure, unadulterated B.S., if I may say so. I guess I could look at how you you see things, LA...the Republicans can do no wrong, even if it means dragging our military in a war based on lies. I'm amazed at how naive you are when it comes to Bush. Do I think he's evil? Yes, to an extent, I do. More than that, I see him as self-serving. You can't face the fact that Bush has mucked up this country so bad, no one will be able to do a quick fix. You go on an on about how the Democrat Congress isn't doing it's job, when in fact, you fail to mention Bush's veto pen every time a bill from the Democrats come to his desk. You fail to mention, every positive thing the Republicans have done, like trying to salvage our Justice system from a group of neo-cons (like Rove) who has decided they would purge the judges and put in more tools for Bush. Even other judges are saying this is what is happening and that the system is a mess.

You are the one who treats Nancy Pelosi as if she is "satan", LA....so before you start pointing any fingers at me, you should look at yourself. At least I admit who I am, a liberal Democrat. I don't hide behind the mask of an Independent, all the while falling lock-step with the extreme right neo-con crowd. You espouse every single talking point of theirs.

And if you notice, when a Democrat screws up or my party isn't doing their job, I say so...you are the one that sees things in black and white. The Democrats are evil and the Republicans are just saving the world...keeping them over there so we don't have to fight them over there. Sound familiar?

I just think it is hilarious that your own candidates are treating Bush like a pariah, and you and AC are still singing his praises.

Mary Ellen said...

You fail to mention, every positive thing the (Republicans) have done,...

Of course that was a big mistake...I meant "You fail to mention every positive thing the Democrats have done.

I would also like to mention, I have even said a thing or two that was positive about Bush. It happens so rarely, though, I can't even think of an example right now.

Mary Ellen said...

Here is an example on my blog where I made it very clear that the Democrats don't reward their criminals like the Republican party does when they are caught violating the law.

case in point

A.C. McCloud said...

LA, actually I was trying for some humility. As ME illustrates, opinions are like, well you know. I appreciate your kind words nonetheless.

ME may not believe this but I've largely backed Bush for his willingness to take the fight to this enemy. The left has been in hatchet mode almost since day one (some were beginning to call Afghanistan a quagmire after one month) largely for political reasons, which I consider banal in light of 9/11 and after what many once said about Saddam. Does that give carte blanche to Bush to take over the world? No, but he's not. Judging from some of the dem prez candidates, they don't believe there is a war. So quite a bit of my commentary has been aimed at pointing out hypocrisy.

Is Bush a screw-up?, Well, he tends to play one on TV. It's part of what ticks off the left, many of whom consider themselves mensa smart. Many are, but that doesn't mean they're always right.

When you step back and look at the economy, the successes we've had in the fight against Islamic terrorism, the fact that many countries across the globe have trended right not left (along with protest marches for freedom) and balance it against what people are saying (Bush has ruined the country) it's fascinating. Was our image better when Clinton was in there? I doubt it.

Now, at the moment the Decider seems to be letting things slip on the immigration issue. He's getting a ton of pressure from the party on Iraq. Who knows, maybe he's like a typical bureaucrat with the retirement countdown clock on his desktop. If he wants anything done he needs to make a better case to the public with Congress as it is. He's more a delegator at heart.

ME I just think it is hilarious that your own candidates are treating Bush like a pariah, and you and AC are still singing his praises.

Politics. Bush has left many of them in a precarious position, since they've got to run for reelection. As LA pointed out, Bush is a lame duck. Maybe he doesn't care about future Repub majorities, but more likely he believes the immigration issue is the key--in other words--let President Hillary and the Dem Congress have the bill and they'll legalize all of them overnight. So long Repubs.

But hey, don't look now but the Democrats are pretty darn divided on a few issues as well and their leadership ain't gettin in done. Reid and Pelosi haven't exactly been bathed in success so far.

LASunsett said...

AC and ME,

I didn't have a blog when Clinton was President, but I spent a fair amount of time on the AOL message boards during that time. What many do not know is, I did my fair amount of defending him, when I thought he was right. And another thing, many may not know is, I have voted for as many Democrats over the years, as I have Republicans.

What I will always do when I make my points and choose who I will vote for is:

I will look at the state of things as they stand at that particular point in time, look at and listen to who is proposing what, then I will make a conscientious decision to support the person or persons that come closest to what I think is the correct course of action. I am smart enough to know that no one party has all of the answers and represents the entire truth, on a given topic. Not the GOP and certainly not the Dems.

But what i do see right now very plainly is, an enemy that seeks to destroy us dead in our tracks. I see politicians playing politics with national security and other related things that affect it. And most of all I see a lot of hypocrisy, especially from the Dems that voted to send us to war and now want to recall that vote after the mission is underway. It didn't just happen, yesterday, either.

From the very beginning when the thing got hairy, those that put their own political ambitions above what was best for the country, lost my respect indefinitely. And ME I am sorry, but the majority of those people are Democrats. I am not willing to forgive that and I won't anytime soon, because I believe in principles that are important to me. And one of those principles is rooted in the military, which I was once a part of and of which my father made his first career.

Look ME, I do not view Bush or Clinton as all good or all bad. I do not view Reagan as all good, either. I call them like I see them, pretty much like most people do. But you or anyone else cannot and will not paint me into a corner on this.

If I say that Pelosi (or whoever) is incompetent, corrupt, or whatever, you can bet I believe it and I almost always tell why I think that. You, on the other hand, can disagree with me, as is your God-given right. But blaming George Bush for everything, while singing the praises of the Dems and calling them most able to lead (especially when their first however many days has produced nothing) isn't going to fly with me.

Mary Ellen said...

AC

I'll take this piece by piece.

(some were beginning to call Afghanistan a quagmire after one month) largely for political reasons, which I consider banal in light of 9/11

Who? Straw man? I do remember Bush saying he wasn't all that concerned about bin Laden, and in light of 911....

Judging from some of the dem prez candidates, they don't believe there is a war.

Wrong again. They believe there is a war, in Iraq. The so-called "war on terror" is not what we are fighting in Iraq. al Qaida wasn't there before Bush made that mess. Going after terror cells all over the world is not like a war where you go in with all your political might. This is what the Democrats are saying. We are not keeping "them" from coming here, we are helping to train them to come here. Big difference.

Is Bush a screw-up?, Well, he tends to play one on TV.

No, he is a screw up as a President, not just on tv. Sitting on vacation while thousands drowned during Katrina ring a bell? Running our debt up into the billions? Making a total disaster out of the prescription drug plans make you want to think a little bit? Should I go on? He's screwed up every business adventure he ever engaged in and let daddy clean up his mess, he didn't even fulfill his duties in the National Guard, didn't bother going for that physical...and I wonder how all those papers got "lost" that show he finished his duty? Coinsidence? Even YOU can't be that naive!

Reid and Pelosi are doing just fine, the Republicans just don't like them looking into their dirty deeds. The Democrats may not agree all the time, but I'll take that over those sheep in the Republican party who have fallen all over themselves to do Bush's bidding and then wondered why the American people told them to get the hell out at the last election. It was barely a month when the Dems took over the Senate and House and already the right wing blogs (and I think this one) was complaining that they hadn't done enough yet. They are doing what they can in the face of a Senate that is almost equally divided and the Republicans constantly knock down everything that comes along that isn't lock step with the Bush ideology. Once we take over a bigger majority in the Senate, that will come to a halt.

Mary Ellen said...

I see politicians playing politics with national security and other related things that affect it.

Like someone in our White House outing a covert CIA agent in order to hurt her husband because he called the White House out on the lies about the yellow cake? Those kind of politics? How about Scooter trying to hide information with the investigation of the leak? The Republicans are clamoring to give him a pardon!
Or, the mess that's going on in the Justice Dept.? Those politics? Or Cheney going around STILL telling everyone that Iraq was responsible for 911 even though he knows for a fact it isn't true? Politics???

Dems haven't produced anything? How about the probe into the Justice Dept. There are lots of justices in that department who have said they have never seen such blatant politics in that department until Gonzo jumped in. That is the job of the Congress, it's called oversite. You may not like that they are digging up dirt on the party that you admire so much, but they are doing what should have been done when the Republicans were in...but they don't do oversight on their own, do they?

On the other hand, well, the Republican party sure did their bid to try to stop unplugging a brain dead woman. Yipppeee! What did the Republican Congress do besided throw money down the tube and try to stop low income Americans from getting a raise in the minimum wage. How much of the things that were told by the 911 Commission got done under them? Feeling safer? Port Security doing ok? The Dems have so much mess to clean up because of those that you support...so please, don't tell me they haven't gotten enough done. It will take YEARS to unravel the mess that Bush and the Republican party laid at the feet of Americans.

And what isn't going to fly with me is this remark by you:
//
But way beyond that, I think ME views things more in terms of black and white or all good/all bad, where politics are concerned. Whereas, you and I may see the gray areas as far as party politics are concerned, she sees the Dems as saviors to the world and Bush as the evil force that must be conquered. I, on the other hand, do not see him as Satan (as those on the left do), nor do I see him as Jesus Christ incarnate (like the Bushie neocons do).//

You shouldn't be surprised why I think of you as a neo-con.

A.C. McCloud said...

Who? Straw man? I do remember Bush saying he wasn't all that concerned about bin Laden, and in light of 911....

I could dig up the links but don't have time. There were people on the far left who protested against us even going in there. But I used the term "some" for a reason.

Wrong again. They believe there is a war, in Iraq. The so-called "war on terror" is not what we are fighting in Iraq. al Qaida wasn't there before Bush made that mess. Going after terror cells all over the world is not like a war where you go in with all your political might. This is what the Democrats are saying. We are not keeping "them" from coming here, we are helping to train them to come here. Big difference.

Nice, but it didn't work under Clinton, which is what the Repubs have been saying all along. There is a component of this war that requires boots on the ground. For instance, we lobbed missiles at Osama but couldn't prevent the training camps. We had to remove the Taliban. If AQ says they are making a stand in Iraq, why would you want to run from them, no matter if they were there under Saddam or not?

No, he is a screw up as a President, not just on tv. Sitting on vacation while thousands drowned during Katrina ring a bell? Running our debt up into the billions? Making a total disaster out of the prescription drug plans make you want to think a little bit? Should I go on? He's screwed up every business adventure he ever engaged in and let daddy clean up his mess, he didn't even fulfill his duties in the National Guard, didn't bother going for that physical...and I wonder how all those papers got "lost" that show he finished his duty? Coinsidence? Even YOU can't be that naive!

Reid and Pelosi are doing just fine,


And here's where I believe you're falling prey to Democrat and MSM talking points. Every prez screws up. But if you look at everything Bush has done sans Iraq in an objective light he is not as bad as advertised. A lot of it is wishful reporting and Democrats who are bitter they lost and will not give any due whatsoever. Fine for regular politics, not fine after an attack.

And remember, he didn't cause Katrina. Recall how Florida was hammered with FOUR hurricanes the year before and nobody complained. This was in large part due to their state/governor/and local officials, not Bush. Katrina was a storm on par with Camille, not just a garden variety storm.

Do the Repubs play politics? You bet. Are they all clean as a whistle? Hardly. You don't read my blog regularly so you've missed the times I've pointed it out. But, if you're really looking for an example of a a bad president look no further than Jimmy Carter..high gas prices..inflation...interest rates at 20 percent.. an talking ab out an embarrassment..our mess in Iran. That's what failure looks like.

the Republicans just don't like them looking into their dirty deeds.

Abramoff was outed, Delay was victim to a Democrat prosecutor and was charged under a law that no longer exists, others are now in jail. This occurred during CLinton, Bush 41, Reagan, Carter, etc. This is no different.

The difference is the contrition. Jefferson just pleaded not guilty and is trying to blame his bribe case on the FBI. Duke Cunningham pleaded guilty, said he was sorry, and is in jail.

Neither side can claim self-righteousness, I'm more concerned with the real issues like the fight against these crazy Islamists and immigration, social security and such.

Mary Ellen said...

And here's where I believe you're falling prey to Democrat and MSM talking points. Every prez screws up. But if you look at everything Bush has done sans Iraq in an objective light he is not as bad as advertised. A lot of it is wishful reporting and Democrats who are bitter they lost and will not give any due whatsoever. Fine for regular politics, not fine after an attack.

Wrong again. These aren't Democrat talking points. A VERY LARGE majority thinks Bush has screwed up everything...have you seen his approval ratings lately? If you recall, the Democrats supported the war in Afghanistan and still do. It had nothing to do with losing anything. The list of Bush's screw ups, lies, deception, and incompetency are too long to list.

And no, he did not cause a hurricane, he bumbled the whole operation and was too busy on vacation (just like he was when he got the little note about bin Laden warning that he was about to strike America), and his Homeland Security failed miserably. With all the money he was given to fix that mess, Homeland Security STILL has not cleaned up that mess. They are stuck in a bunch of Bush red tape. As usual, I'm seeing a lot of Republican amnesia here.

Jimmy Carter did not send military troops to war without the proper equipment. Jimmy Carter did not disrespect our troops by using them for photo ops. Jimmy Carter did not kick the troops in the ass for their service by cutting benefits to them and their families. Jimmy Carter did not lie to the American people about why he wanted to go to war. You want to talk gas prices...today in my area $3.55 per gallon. Lots of number fudging on the employment under Bush. Seems they think everything is hunky dory, when there are more people than any other time working two or more jobs to support themselves. How about prescription drugs under Bush? Not a problem under Carter. But ya know what...all things considered, I'd rather have Carter who was honest, sincere, and respectful of our military, than Bush. Wait until your kids are paying off the billions of dollars we owe on this war, they're going to LOVE your support of Bush and his "war on terror". The real terror we are experiencing is coming from Bush.

Oh...and wasn't it one of your guys that made a comment about how we need a good ol' rip roarin' terrorist attack in American to show all of us liberals that there IS a war on terror? Yeah...a real stand up crowd.

As far as corruption, I saw a graph somewhere (I'll see if I can find it) that shows this administration has been the most corrupt of any other administration in the history of our country, even worse than Nixon and Watergate. My gosh, you hear that from some of your own people! Scooter Libby is the highest official in the White House to ever by convicted of a Federal crime. Does that tell you something about corruption? If he had not blocked the investigation, I have no doubt that Rove and Cheney would be in the cells next to him. Congress isn't finished with Rove yet, though. Of course, Bush continues to hide them behind the executive priviledge stuff...Condi refuses to cooperate and go before a Congressional hearing. Sure, it's hard to convict when they outright refuse to follow the laws.

Their time will come....

LASunsett said...

ME,

//You shouldn't be surprised why I think of you as a neo-con.//

If that's the worst thing you think I am, then I must be okay. I'll stand in my own judgment before the Almighty and I am at peace with who I am, and what I stand for. And the one thing I stand for is my conviction, just as you stand for yours.

But just because you think it to be so, doesn't mean it's so. I hope you will re-evaluate your statement. Because beyond what you see through this blog, you really don't know much about me.

Mary Ellen said...

LA


But way beyond that, I think ME views things more in terms of black and white or all good/all bad, where politics are concerned. Whereas, you and I may see the gray areas as far as party politics are concerned, she sees the Dems as saviors to the world and Bush as the evil force that must be conquered. I, on the other hand, do not see him as Satan (as those on the left do), nor do I see him as Jesus Christ incarnate (like the Bushie neocons do).


A wise man once said....


"But just because you think it to be so, doesn't mean it's so. I hope you will re-evaluate your statement. Because beyond what you see through this blog, you really don't know much about me."

Who was judging who, LA? I'll re-evaluate my statement, and you can re-evaluate yours...then we're even. I think you also judged me unfairly in that statement. Something to think about, no? ;-)

Sorry if I upset you.

A.C. McCloud said...

A VERY LARGE majority thinks Bush has screwed up everything...have you seen his approval ratings lately?

That's my point. The MSM has been successful. Just look at the economy. Stock market has reached an all-time high. People are working and making money. More money has come into the treasury than ever. Iraq is the ONLY reason the Dems have been able to drive those popularity numbers down.

Jimmy Carter did not send military troops to war without the proper equipment.

A canard. Our troops have the best equipment in the world. But if you want to make silly just recall the outcome of Carter's only military campaign and the effect it had down the line. And I notice you didn't defend his economic mess.

As far as the rest of your post it's pretty much boilerplate liberal talking points with only marginal flirtation with fact. Just admit it ME, you hate this guy and probably have from the beginning. I felt pretty much the same about Clinton when he was in there after awhile (although I genuinely gave him a crack at the outset to the dismay of some friends) so I know where you're coming from. And looking back I know I was too hard on him. For the most part. :-)

Mary Ellen said...

AC

I don't have any problem whatsoever admitting that I hated Bush from the beginning. I already knew he was a screw up, didn't complete his National Guard, ran all his business' into the ground. He was and still is just a punk.

I love your vision of a great economy. You might want to read some books that aren't put out by Bush tools. The stock market is not what shows a great economy. Big business is doing good because they have sent most of their jobs off shore. Talk to the middle class and try to convince them that the economy is peachy. I also noticed that you had nothing to say about the high gas prices.

Listen, I don't have time to go point by point with you and I'm not going to convince you that Bush is one of the worst Presidents in the history of this country, that will be his legacy.

I was listening to the radio this afternoon while driving around and there was a guy that was on that was a POW with McCain at the Hanoi Hilton. He was friends with McCain before that and after. When asked what he thought of the torture, or as Bush calls it "enhanced interrogations", he said flat out...it's torture and our country is at its lowest point ever in regard to this situation. We're an embarrassment and a disgrace to the code of the military. That takes a lot for a man who suffered torture himself while serving our country with honor. He said, although he was a Republican...but has changed camps because of Bush and his pre-emptive ware policy and torture...oh, "enhanced interrogation methods".

My points are not liberal talking points, and you just can't face fact. It's a shame that you are so blinded by your neo conservative views. You are really in the minority, a very small minority of people who actually think that Bush had done a good job. You continue to defend him.

Not to mention...I hear the old guy has been hitting the booze again. It doesn't really matter, though, because drunk or sober, he's still an incompetent boob, a fact you will have to face.

Oh..and if you want to continue to believe our troops have the best equipment in the world, why don't you ask a GI that's serving in Iraq. There was a soldier who did an interview and said they still don't have the fortified humvees and the parts to keep them running. They have to salvage parts from the ones that have been blown up by IED's. I made it very clear...Bush sent them into war without the proper equipment. I think we were told that "we go to war with what we have"....wasn't that the answer our former Secretary of Defense gave to a soldier at a town hall meeting?

Oh...and don't forget to look up all the cuts that Bush made to the military funding for the troops and their families. But, hey, they make great photo ops.

Ok..have to go. I'm leaving early tomorrow for a vacation. Maybe you can get together with Bush and have a beer. I hear he's off the wagon. Doesn't matter, though, he's incompetent whether he's drunk or sober.

A.C. McCloud said...

I'll not convince you, ME. For example, even if I point out the unemployment stats are low and the stock market is high, this means nothing unless a democrat did it, then it means everything and is indisputable.

Or if I point to the fact that Bill Clinton started the CIA rendition program in the 90s, which had captured suspected terrorists flown to countries that used 'enhanced interrogation techniques' you'd probably say, "yeah, but it wasn't us", which I guess makes it OK.

The great thing about America is we get to elect a new leader in less than 2 years. Talk about fiddling on the balcony, I failed to mention that almost all the democrat candidates have been doing that for awhile regards any threat from Islamists, Edwards leading the pack. But, Americans will decide.

Have a great vacation ME. Wish I was going on one.